to anonymous (topic initiator)

"Father-in-law's Contribution to Family Expenses"

you are most welcome for anything of value i may have posted.  it was never my intention that you reveal all your personal info on the site - only to make clear how complicated these situations are, and how MANY perspectives and questions there are to consider.  

my 81 yo mother has alzheimer's disease and has now lived with me and my family for  4 1/2 years.  I am responsible for every aspect of her life and her affairs.  we too live in an expensive area (marin county, california) and her presence has far-reaching impacts on every aspect of ALL our lives, not the least of which being the financial.  

we understand that even a SLIGHTLY dependent elder can never be "just a tenant..."  after all, if that were the case your father-in-law could have chosen to live ANYWHERE.  but he is old, lonely, afraid, and needy, and as time passes his needs will grow greater.  and he does expect and DEPEND on the fact that you will be there for him. and too, you obviously are willing to be there for him, or the situation would not have developed to this point.

so - you are ONE household.  everyone helps everyone else.  someone can cook, someone can shop.  someone needs help and reassurance at doctor visits - or an advocate!  someone may even feel the need for a buffer between himself and certain other family members who offer him little but are overly interested in his "estate."

we received a lot of help from a social worker who specializes in elder issues and facilitated some very open and frank conversations for all of us (adults) about the way things were, how and why they had become that way, what it meant to and for ALL parties involved (yes, your children have a financial stake in this, something i doubt your father-in-law has considered,) what we all meant to one another (not just emotionally) AND what that was "worth" both in value and money.  she was GREAT.

it strikes me that what is happening at your house is a gradual, but profound, evolution of  your household dynamics - a direct result of your "dad's" gradually increasing needs - the bulk of the responsibility for which falls upon you as mother-nurturer-caregiver-woman.   as the load subtly increases, we begin to ask "is it worth it?" and naturally look first to the monetary impacts as they are easily quantifiable and emotionally neutral.  

but you are asking legitimate questions, starting in the most obvious and logical place, and you WILL figure it all out.  meanwhile, you are not alone.  

most people on this site are much further along this road of questioning you are just beginning to travel, and their answers reflect their exhaustion, their pain, their lack of support, and their internal conflicts.  all have unique stories, all cope as well as possible, and all mean well.  but we all sacrifice and we all suffer and we all love, and we struggle with our limitations.

my mother cruelly abused me both physically and psychologically when i was a child, and she continued psychologically when i became an adult.  i was her most "successful" child, yet her least loved.  she lives with me because no one else wants her, busy as they are with "their own lives," and i cannot bring myself to institutionalize her.  

my family comes first, and though she is a part of my family, she represents the past, not the future. when i explain this to her, that my children come first, she tells me proudly that she really does understand.  "after all" she'll say, "in my life, your sister and brother ALWAYS came first." 

hang in there.

Thank you to all for your responses. You have provided thoughtful input to us which we can consider as we move forward. Any time a family willingly becomes a caregiver, there will be things to work out, particularly over a six year and growing time frame. We love our father, he loves us, and our kids have a special relationship with him that would not have occurred had he not moved in with us. That is priceless. We are not trying to relegate our relationship to an expense sheet, however we were curious as to how other families cope with shared living expenses in a long term situation such as ours. Thank you all for your thoughts.

need more info...

1)  has the living arrangement been formalized with a written contract?  

2)  was the cost for the renovations given to you as a gift? or does he own a percent of your house?

3)  was their any witness besides yourselves to the development or discussion of any part of this exchange?

4)  does he have other children?

5)  does he have a will, and has "the arrangement" and/or the 40k payment been addressed in the context of his will?  has he named a power of attorney?

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6)  does he eat with you or prepare his own meals? (shopping, food prep, clean-up...)

7)  does he do his own laundry?

8)  does he have his own circle of friends or is he socially dependent on your family? does he vacation with you?  can you and your spouse go out and leave him home alone

9)  when he is sick are you expected to care for him? have you discussed what will happen should he become incapacitated?

10)  does he really LIVE in the basement apartment, or does he just sleep there?  Does he have unlimited access to your home and vice versa?  If you go out for an evening without him, does he hang out in his apartment or in your living room?  Does he have his own telephone?

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11)  for how much could you rent the apartment to a stranger?  take that amount and multiply it by 12, then again by six.  have you hit 40k yet?

12)  what is the impact of his presence on your taxes, water, energy bills , etc?

YOU MAKE IT SOUND LIKE ONE BIG HOUSEHOLD, AS OPPOSED TO TWO LIVING UNITS.  IF SO, THE NATURE OF THE DISCUSSION NEEDS TO CHANGE COMPLETELY.  IF HE IS LIVING "WITH" YOU RATHER THAN "NEAR" YOU, you have every right to feel the need to reopen the discussion...

did anonymous see the part that said financially taxing? Maybe someone doesn't like to complain & is ALREADY very good @ seeing the good side of life. That doesn't mean that the caregiver is free from financial stress.

To the contributor who said " Isn't a $45,000 investment in your house enough?"===Wow! I thought this site was for support- not a feel better by attacking others zone! I have not given all our personal information per my husband's wishes. We are incurring huge electric and heating fuel bills as well as living in one of the most expensive tax areas in the country so the addition, though great for Dad has only added expense to us. All that aside, we love him and I am committed to his having the right to dignity in his old age. This question line is such a SMALL part of our life. Now I'm sorry I ever looked for direction from the members of this website. The only helpful response came from GALOWA-Thanks by the Way-Our goal is to all survive with fond memories and the knowledge that we honored an honorable man without sacrificing our children's education to do it. PLEASE READ THE RULES AGAIN BEFORE RESPONDING. I'M NOT A COMPLAINER NOR DO I POST PUBLICLY ABOUT TRIVIAL STUFF so that should tell you SOMETHING if you have any sensitivity at all. Sorry if I took this wrong but I just got back from the seventh DR visit this month. Try a little understanding. Your comments make me wonder how much of THAT you give your own parent.

Your father is getting up in age. Unless you can't pay your bills I would enjoy the time you have left with him. He sounds set in his ways and really believes that dinner and gifts once in a while makes up for it. My dad is similar and unless it is completely unbearable financially, just enjoy the time left.

Thank You Galowa, you provided a very thoughtful answer, eloquent and insightful, and captured in words the essence of what we were trying to learn in asking our original question. The sharing of your own situation, and how it has been resolved has given us questions to ask of ourselves and a new way to look at each of our roles and responsibilties. Your comment regarding the responses from other members and how they relect the particular foxholes these people find themselves entrenched in is a very gracious reminder to me to be patient and gracious as well. Thanks for your help.

You know, it really sounds to me like you have an ideal situation. You were able to accomodate your father in law with his financial help. He is evidently sweet and kind and you can include him in events with and without friends. He evidently cares enough and has the brains to remember and shop for gifts. If you can afford to pay for 3 college tuitions, you dont need his money on a monthly basis. How much could an extra 1,000 sf add to your electric bill? How much food could an 81 year old possibly eat?

I say all this so you can realize what you do have, and how much longer will you have him? I lost my wonderful, caring, sweet, kind mom 6 months ago. She did everything for my father who has macular degeneration and can not drive. He was nasty and ugly to her all their married life, almost 50 years. She was a saint and a doormat for staying married to him because she knew no one else would be able to deal with him, and he was unable to care for himself. The burden of caring for this angry man has fallen to me. I've done everything to take care of him and have, over the past 6 months, spent less and less time with him. He has proven he is unable to care for himself properly, is losing weight and may eventually suffer the effects of not eating correctly as a diabetic. He WILL eventually lose toes, possibly damage his kidneys. I've been unable to teach him to eat right, nor has a nurse who was going to his house. He is unteachable. I wish, oh how I wish I had a father that was not half crazy, addle brained and nice. Someone I'd be happy to have live with me and care for him. I want to care for him properly, but he is so nasty and ugly that I cant be around him. I wont put up with verbal abuse, and he sometimes gets physical and pushes me. I absoutely wont put up with it!

Please realize what you have. You dont need the rent each month. You need to go give that man an hug and thank him for being normal, nice and kind.

I'd like to hear more on this subject. Should an elderly parent who is well off help in some financial way? Especially when it is financially taxing to the caregiver.

Thanks to Mikol DAvis for your response. We just don't know how to bring up Dad contributing to the household, how to ask or demand or even what would be fair. The space could rent for $1000 (not including the garage space for his car), but we're not looking for rental equivalance.

Galowa is right. If he has disabilities and/or Dementia etc., or if he's a healthy independent Senior, makes all the difference in how the community responds with suggestions.

ONE MORE NOTE...

You do not mention whether or not your husband's father has any disabilities or dementing conditions such as Alzheimer's. However, you DO refer to yourself as a "caregiver." Is "Dad" in need of care for some reason?

If so, posting it would go a long way toward clarifying for the community why you feel the need for help with expenses. My own mother has AD, and I can tell you that I (along with my husband) provide personal housekeeping, shopping-food prep-cooking-serving-cleanup, scheduling, entertaining, laundry, personal cleaning-hygiene-grooming-dressing/undressing-bedtime preparation, med management, financial management, PROPERTY management for TWO PROPERTIES (not our own,) exercise...

THIS IS NOT JUST "TIME" THAT WE SPEND - IT IS "LIFE."

From a COST perspective, she showers longer than anyone, uses the toilet TEN times more often, leaves the water partly on after washing her hands, leaves lights on ALL over the house, eats like a hose, craves SWEETS and TREATS (complaining if not available,) causes untold DAMAGE to the house, its contents, and our psyches (often by "trying" to help.)

To date she has broken my blender jar and my laptop computer screen, the porcelain toilet bowl in her bathroom, torn clothing while folding it, destroyed garden plantings by "weeding them out...," broken THREE vacuum cleaners..., broom handles, plates-dishes-utensils-glasses, MY eyeglasses, a car door handle, car's leather upholstery, and several telephones. This list is by no means complete. It's all I can think of right now.

Additionally, her presence in our home/lives required that we purchase a larger vehicle (family van that seats seven) which cost $21,000 and drove up our car insurance.

We also needed to increase our home liability insurance in case she's injured on our property (and my sister or brother decide to sue us...)

TELEPHONE has skyrocketed as we attempt to keep her connected to all the family who never call HER.

But, worst of all, SHE CAN NEVER BE LEFT ALONE... This makes ME (usually me) a VIRTUAL PRISONER IN MY OWN HOME, literally trapped with a tragically pathetic LUNATIC. It is EXHAUSTING. NO ONE should have to listen to "Hi" (like its the FIRST time) over fifty times a day...

I can't handle going on right now, (lucky for you,) but perhaps another time.

Best,

galowa

Hi there,

I apologize if you took my answer (mine was the one that ended "get a hug and enjoy him") as slamming you. This website, I've found has a lot of different views, and I've found it helpful as it makes you think about a different side of things you didnt see before. Only you know your financial situation, and if you truly need financial help based on the property taxes and electric bill, then approach him about it. If he is as kind and sweet as you say he is, then he will understand a serious plea for assistance. When and if he needs to go into an assisted living, or if you ever sell your home when he's gone, you can take the portion of what he invested into your home and put it in a trust in his name, give it to charity, anything that would help the family as a whole feel that you didnt receive any unfair advantage.

it is all a lot to consider and deal with. Hang in there.

Getting up in age? He sounds miserly if you ask me, but now that its gone on this long, it probably wont be worth the fight if youy don't really need the rent $$ from him.

anonymous...

if you send me a hug or prayer, and include your email, we can communicate privately. i cannot send YOU one since you "anonymous."

thinking of you... : )

galowa

Don't you think a $45,000 investment in YOUR home is worth quite a bit? He won't realize any financial benefit from the renovations, but you surely will if and when you decide to sell your house!

While Dad is physically healthy now, if that situation should change, and he is forced to live in assisted living or long-term care, his savings could be depleted rapidly. Keep that in mind.

Any financial agreement should be in writing, especially if it is with a relative. That type of situation can "go south" more easily than with a stranger, it seems.

I detect that most of the community sees the $45,000 for renovation as a red flag re family reaction. My husband had a traumatic brain injury and was self employed. In an instant, our income plumetted, while our costs sky rocketed. I have been his sole care giver. We were forced to our assets to live and for his medical needs while waiting 2yrs and 5 mos for Medicare to start.

His family still refuses to help - even though it's their brother and their son, because they keep focusing on the small savings we had when the injury happened. They seem to think it's still in tact and that I've been living on a gravy train. They seem oblivious to hiow much it has cost to live and care for him this last 2 1/2 yrs. They ignore the value of my time and the fact I've been unable to return to work, - thus loosing income. As his TBI induced Dementia increased, I've I've had to absorb costs of household items broken when he gets into a rage. Then there are dental costs from grinding my teeth from stress and treatment for a new ulcer. Yet, they concentrate on the $40,000 savings. They act as though we don't need help. His mother repeatedly asks for a 15 yr gift to be repaid (she now claims it was a loan)- given before I met my husband - as though we have vast finances laying around. My point is that family can get very "squirrelly" when money is in the picture. Unless you are your father-in-laws sole heir, I'm sure the $45,000 renovation of your home is a BIG issue in their minds. Extended family probably even think that you are continuing to benefit from your father-in-laws presence - taking you all out to dinner etc.

A very common problem. I suggest you speak with your father-in-law (actually, your husband should take on this responsibility - it's his Dad). Just explain to him that the increase in monthly bills has become a bit of a burden. If you haven't asked him, you just don't know yet if he would mind chipping in a bit. Be specific re the additional electric, gas, etc. He may be perfectly willing to help pay his costs if he knows the situation. You also mention 7 Dr visits in one month. Can he take a taxi or is there a Senior Citizen transportation service in your area? It sounds like your father-in-law is a lovely man. I think charging him rent would be crass, but asking him to contribute monthly to the additional financial burden seems reasonable.

Dear anonymous,

Here are a few caring.com links which might help. I would be happy to offer my two cents if you were to get in touch via "hug."

Meanwhile:

http://www.caring.com/blogs/caring-currents/parents-moving-in-with-you

and

http://www.caring.com/blogs/caring-currents/financial-crises-for-caregivers-the-time-vs-money-dilemma

and

http://www.caring.com/articles/care-agreement

and

http://www.caring.com/articles/is-moving-in-relative-a-good-fit#dealing-with-finances-and-support-when-an-older-adult-moves-in

AND, LAST BUT NOT LEAST (even though it is after the fact...)

http://www.caring.com/articles/moving-in-relative-question

PAY SPECIAL ATTENTION TO "Point #5." "Will your family member contribute financially?" (below)

http://www.caring.com/articles/family-financial-contribution

($45,000, as you NOW know, is NOT what it used to be... NOR is it nearly enough for what you and your family have had to and will continue to have to give up...)

Wishing YOU the VERY best!

IT IS NEVER TOO LATE TO HAVE "THE TALK"

Good luck!

galowa