Dad is in denial

Hi Rebecca,

How receptive do you  think your dad would be to a really frank, but supportive discussion?  If you feel like he's despressed, maybe he'll open up to you about what's bothering him.  Perhaps there are things that can be changed to help him out.  Of course...he'll have to want to change them. 

Are you your Dad's closing relative?  Is there someone you know and trust living near him that could look in on him or visit and report back to you on how bad his drinking problem is? 

I hear you on wanting to "fix" a parent and fighting the urge to nag.  Let me save you some therapy...  Free will is a powerful thing.  All you can do is talk to your dad, present him with any information you think would be helpful to him, make suggestions, offer help and provide encouragement.  In the end, he's got to make his own choices...which, trust me, I know is hard to watch.  I have a dad who I think short changes himself all the time because he just doesn't want to do things differently or make extra effort.  It would positively drive me insane!   Like you, at times I found it really hard to be around him.  It took a long time, but once I allowed myself to be relieved of responsibility for his actions, things got better between us.

Rebecca,

I had a alcoholic dad that I tried to fix. If he's really an alcoholic, you just can't fix him. You need to do what you think is right so that his alcoholism doesn't hurt you too. Many of your caregiving instincts get turned on their heads when it comes to alcoholism.

What's right for you could be many things: tell him how much it bothers you each time you see him, compose a thoughtful start of a conversation about why you'd like him to stop drinking and have one big talk about it, or make peace with yourself that you can love and accept your father as he is and have just as much interaction as you can without ending up feeling depressed yourself.

On his depression, I know that I really use the outdoors and movement to pull me out of slumps. (And, it doesn't surprise me to see drinking and depression together.) Why don't you plan visits (if possible) where you can do things together you enjoy, preferably out of his house?

There are all kinds of support groups for families of alcoholics. It can really help to talk through how his drinking makes you feel with other people who've been there too.

Hey thanks for the responses.  They're really helpful. My Dad does live with a longtime partner of about 20 years, though he goes over to his own apartment  to do the drinking.  I guess she said, if you want to drink do it over there.  I've tried a few times in the past to talk with him about the drinking and I think she did too.  He supposedly went to AA for a little while but he gets pretty stubborn and I think sometimes he just says he's doing something to 'get us off his back'.

I think thats a good idea about finding something to do with him that he would enjoy.  He doesn't move around much physically, but does go to 2 excercise classes a week. 

I suspect that I just need to find a way as you said to not let it get to me.  hmmm food for thought

gotta run thanks

Hi Rebecca,

I think I can guess the answer to this, but how receptive would your father be to being evaluated and treated for his depression? If he is depressed, and it sounds like he is, his drinking is only making things worse.

You're right about one thing: you need to find a way to not take responsiblitity for your father's actions. I know that's a lot more easily said than done, but you've talked to him about all of this so many times. Ultimately, he'll have to decide how he wants to live his life, as painful as that is for you and everyone else who loves him.

So sorry you're dealing with this. Big hugs to you.

Hey Thanks Stephanie... 

You are right....if you guessed no...   .   He is so anti-establishment about doctors -  for a good reason, though I think its stupid to make blanket judgements.  ( A couple big doc screwups in the past.)

I was  just thinking about how he used to call me and other sibs every sunday or so, and now he never does.   I thought that it was a reaction to my telling him about my concerns about the drinking or the way I was telling him.  But maybe its just another layer of passivity coming up.  

Its such a hard topic I think because I have all my own baggage about him and hard to be objective.   

That is sort of the heart of the matter isn't it.   When and how to intervene in someone else's life or not to.  When is it caring to let go and when is it caring to jump in. 

Thanks for the big HUGS! 

Aiyiyi, baggage: that's a whole post in and of itself.

Do you miss talking to your dad on Sundays? How about your siblings? Could you guys set up a rotating schedule for calling *him*, or would that just make everyone crazy?

Hmmm  I think I could and will raise the subject about dad with bros.  We're all convening for his 80th birthday on Sunday, and it might be helpful for us all to talk about concerns and checking in on him by phone. 

What I miss about dad is the conversations that I never had.  Some people you talk to and it feels like there is someone who really hears you and you them and you can talk.  So while I am speaking to him it feels like he's on auto-pilot, so there's not much gratification  from it, other then to know that he's still breathing and going around in his little world.

It makes me sad.  

I'm reporting in on Dad's 80 bday.  I found it impossible to talk with sibs about him at the time.  And I've so much baggage I just find it difficult to consider trying to talk to him about my concerns about him.

So my latest thought is to write him a letter telling him all the things I'm concerned about.   I was thinking this bc I know he blocks stuff out in conversations and this way he could read the letter and then re-read it so that maybe it would register. 

What do you think?  Cop out?

Hey Rebecca, Boy have I been there. I think you could try the letter-writing option; if nothing else, it might make you feel better to air your feelings and concerns and feel that you've done what you can.

But if your dad is an alcoholic, I wouldn't expect too much from his response; one of the biggest components of alcoholism is denial, and it can be a real beast to deal with. If your dad's in denial that his drinking has gotten out of control, then he's spending a lot of mental energy "proving" to himself that he's fine, and your letter may just provoke his defensiveness. If your siblings are also in denial, then it gets really hard because it can feel like everyone's ganging up on you and telling you YOU'RE the crazy one!!

In addition to writing the letter to your dad, I would suggest talking frankly to your siblings. Prepare ahead of time a list of incidents that illustrate your belief that your dad's drinking too much, so that you can "show" them as well as tell them. You might also read up on the definition of alcoholism (one of the key points is that the person doesn't stop drinking even in the face of negative consequences) so you can explain to your sibs why you feel your dad is an alcoholic and the ways in which he fits this diagnosis.

Then hopefully you can have a practical discussion about what to do next. You may not be able to stop your dad from drinking too much -- recovering from alcoholism is a big task and it may too much to expect this late in your father's life. However, perhaps you can tackle some of the other things, such as depression, you feel are contributing to your father's drinking. You can also figure out ways to protect him from some of the dangers of his drinking, such as making sure he can't drive drunk.

Good luck; I honestly feel this is one of the MOST difficult situations we deal with in caring for aging parents!!!!

Thanks for posting your update although I'm sorry to hear that you weren't able to talk to your brothers that well at the party. Do you live close enough to where you can another time? Maybe just a sibling dinner?

Both my parents are alcoholics and it is SO hard :(   I do feel lucky at this point though that my mom has been sober for over a year and my dad about 4-5 months. But I remember the feeling of helplessness and the wanting to "fix" them like it was yesterday.

I agree with Melanie, that the letter definitely couldn't hurt- even if it doesn't get through to your dad, it will probably help you feel better just to get it "all out".

Please continue to keep us updated and definitely enlist the help of your siblings- the situation is hard enough so don't feel like you have to deal with the burden on your own.

Lisa

I have to laugh... bc I started to write this letter and try to be so thoughtful and caring and on and on, and then I just got tired and wrote down what I really felt....  like  "I love you a lot even though you are a complete jerk!".... well I guess I won't actually send that, but it did feel good to write it, and some how that lets it go a little. 

Melanie -  great suggestion about collecting some specific examples of dad's drinking stuff....

LIsa -  my sibs and I pretty much pin down the corners of the USA map, so getting together is not  likely  soon, but I think I'll copy them on my letter and  tell them what I think's going on.  -  once I can figure out how to write a compassionate letter.   

That must be really difficult with 2 parents being alcholics, but its great they are on the sober ship.   What motivated them to get them on that path? 

LOL Rebecca!  I'm the queen of writing out emails of honesty.  The key is to never address them...then there's NO chance they'll get sent  Seriously, though, it's so healthy of you to have written the "you're a jerk" letter.  There's nothing worse than trying to convince yourself you feel differently than you do. 

I definitely agree with Missy about there being nothing wrong with writing a "you're a jerk" letter! Ahhh, nothing feels better than to just get it off your chest. I bet that you'll find the compassionate letter easier to write now that you have all those other feelings vented out.

As for question as to what motivated my parents to get on the "sober path"-   For my mom, she was living with us for awhile and while we knew she was a functional alcoholic, it just started getting worse and worse. It was extremely stressful and we knew she would never agree to go into rehab on her own.  So we did an intervention. She kicked, she screamed, she said "she'd rather die than go", etc etc. But finally, HOURS later (with the help of a family therapist via telephone), she wore down.

She stayed at the rehab facility for over 2 weeks and learned all about the AA the program. She really connected with the program and immediately when she returned home, we made sure she went to the local AA meetings here. I worried enormously when she did move out of our house and back in with my dad because he was still drinking at the time but she's stayed sober and we're super proud of her.

As for my dad- I'm not exactly sure what motivated him to finally stop. I know that he attended a few AA meetings with my mom but even then he didn't stop immediately. I give a lot of credit to a therapist we all see. I started seeing her first b/c of the stress of my mom living with us and later she started seeing my parents for marriage therapy.  This therapist can get through to my dad like hardly anyone else can and I think she helped him start on the sober path. He tried to just cut down a few times but that totally didn't work and finally just also really bought into the AA program and quit for good. Thank God for AA !!! It really is an amazing group/program. I've even attended Al-Anon a few times and it's been helpful.

Phew, sorry for long -winded response to your question!! Sorry you asked? LOL !! I'll be thinking of you! Come back and update us once in awhile!

Yeah,  I think so about writing the letter.... been procrastinating ....  burying myself in work... but its officially this weekend's project.  I end up having to set a firm deadline, and then in the last 15 minutes I know I'll just zip it out when there is no longer any time to get caught up in 'is this right', 'should I say that' - it ends up being the best I can do for now.

Not sorry I asked at all!   wow really cool - I know it takes a lot of courage to do an intevention and it can be powerful if you can get everyone on board about it.  We did that many years ago with another family member, but it can be challenging to get everyone to agree to it.  That's super.

ALso makes me think of something a therapist friend said to me many many years ago. 

"You can't change anybody else. You can tell them about it- which is the least effective method (of course) because they get defensive.  Or you can work on that thing in yourself - which can be very powerful .  It causes an effect on them through sort of like osmosis - like something that is possible in your personal universe becomes possible in theirs through your work on it."

The idea has stuck with me, and I think there is something to it, but I don't really know what that would be in terms of my dad. ????

Okay Lisa I have to ask...  this has been bugging me years....

Al-anon....  personally I just hate group things.... What's the benefit...  I don't drink.... what's the point?   

(no defensiveness here.... )

mmmmm....  maybe I should do a little Byron Katie thing...and say... Daughter is in denial....  

For me, Al-Anon was helpful because it brought me into contact with people who were going through the exact same feelings (i.e. frustrations, stresses) as I was. I'm not a huge fan of big group things either b/c I always worry about not having anything to contribute but it was still nice to hear people talk about similar experiences I was having. I spent a lot of meetings just listening and nodding my head in agreement :)

I also found the Al-Anon books very helpful !! My favorite is " Courage to Change" but the main/traditional Al-Anon book  " Paths to Recovery" is good too. One of the greatest lessons I learned from the book is that alcoholism is truly a family disease. Unlike something like diabetes that only exists inside the body of the person with diabetes, alcoholism is a diesase of relationships. I really have to work hard to remember that I'm powerless over it and all the worrying in the world won't help them stay sober.  It's a tough one for me- I'm a big worrier!!

If you're not feeling up to joining a group (which is understandable), I'd start out by checking out one of the Al-Anon books.

cool thanks Lisa,   Maybe I will check out one of the books. 

Sent letter to dad yesterday...  holding pattern... 

 Sometimes you just have to do stuff because you have to do it, knowing full well that it won't change a thing. 

My letter to Dad was like that.  He wrote me a letter back - well that was something.  But there was no clue in it that he was responding to anything that I actually wrote to him about.  sigh... 

In Tai Chi we call this investing in loss.

Epiphany moment -  the day after I got this letter from my Dad, he calls - which is first time in months that he has initiated a call, and he's not drunk - and we talk about the letters.  It was actually not a bad conversation  though I still think he is in denial.  But the epiphany moment was that  I realized I was holding on to all this baggage about him and what he should do and I felt like I was able to drop it.   I can still care about him, but I don't have quite so much invested in the outcome.   what a relief!! 

Glad you're on this side of this of the epiphany.

I waited about 30 years to talk to my dad about his alcoholism. I wrote a letter too.

I didn't get the response I hoped for, but it did really relieve me of this crazy burden that I didn't realize that I was carrying around: that I could fix my dad. It was some crazy conflation of ego (others had tried but I would succeed with my perfectly constructed and massively moving words) and deep misunderstanding of alcoholism. It was a big relief to find my way out of his disease. I really relished getting to just spend time with my father, even if it meant reducing my expectations for him.

*hugs*  Rebecca, I'm happy you've had this moment of clarity.  I went through a similar cycle with my dad.  It didn't involve alcoholism, but rather his refusal to do as ordered by docs.  No matter how much I nagged, pleaded, etc with him, he just wouldn't follow orders.  It put a huge strain on our relationship until one day I had this same ephiphany.  Free will is a very powerful thing.  It's not my responsibility to do anything for my dad, other than support, encourage and love him.  I can't make him go to cardiac rehab or stop eating bacon.  The burden isn't mine to carry.

and besides its a bad idea to give up something that tastes as good as bacon

I also wanted to add my hugs and congrats on your epiphany! It's such a difficult thing to realize that you can't change or fix them. And I'm finding it just as hard to remember it ! So many times I find myself falling back into my old patterns of trying to "fix everything", sigh.

Hi folks,

I was really happy to find this discussion. It looks like you've all been there and I need your help! I had to put both of my parents in a residential care facility this January. I was really lucky to find one that was within my parents means and that would take them both. I had to move them there because my mom has a lot of health problems and needs full time assistance. My dad on the other hand is an alchoholic and was no longer taking care of things. My mom has early dementia and fired the home care/housekeepers we hired because she thought they were stealing from her. My dad just quit doing any household things like paying bills and throwing out the garbage although he found plenty of time to get drunk. He has been through rehab a few times, used to go to AA but doesn't "like" it.

So they have been doing well at this RCFE. When they moved in they/we had to sign the facilities agreement and among the terms was that there will be no alcohol on the premises w/o the the facility's knowledge. My dad has been pretty good up until now. I suppose he was just maintainence drinking offsite. Recently, my younger sister who won't deal with my dad's problem at all noticed empty vodka bottles in their room. I talked to him sternly (I hate to use that word, but I am now his parent) and told him that it was unacceptable and the consequences might be that he would have to leave the care home. He said he would do better. He has the physical ability to go to an AA meeting, but he won't. Of course, because of the nature of the beast, he has progressively gotten worse.

Today, I have to go speak to him again. The owner of the facility (who is also a registered nurse) called my sister last night because he has been falling at the home and they believe it is because of his drinking. One time they found him on the floor with a bottle in his hand. The owner is extremely competent, kind and caring as are all of the health workers there. They love my parents but she cannot risk losing her nursing license and her facility license due to her knowledge that my dad is taking medication and drinking. My dilemma is what to do with him. I could kick him out (before the care facility does), I can insist he go to AA and take him to the meetings, I could check him into a Kaiser outpatient (that's all they have in my area) alcohol abuse clinic. He has been to this before, but relapsed after a few months. I have power of attorney for both of them and I feel like kicking him out and letting him fend for himself. I am losing my patience with him because we have been through this so many times and this time I refuse to put my mom's already fragile existence and her home care on the line because of my dad's drinking problem. If you have any input, advice or insight please respond and thanks for your help - I really need it!