Suspect Dementia in Elderly Mom.

Hello Rzales! Welcome to Caring groups.

I'm sorry to hear of your mother. What's happening that makes you concerned she's showing signs of dementia, if I an ask? In the meantime, I think having her evaulated is a very good idea.

Please let us know how things are going!

LauraL:

Thanks for your response.  Some of her symptoms seem to be cognitive related and delusional at times.

Thanks.

Rzales

Now why does this sound so familiar to me? My mom started experiencing dementia and delusional episodes as well. It was a bit easier for me since I am the one to take her to the doctors' office anyway. I joined an elderly alzheimers' support group online and the posters were quite knowledgeable. They advised me to have her see her doctor when I suspected a possiblility of alzheimers , they said to request of the doctor a MRI and...I did.  That day, I told mom we were going to have a testing that would better aide the doctor in prescribing more precise and agreeable medications. OK, the test findings indicated that my mom did not have alzheimers', not even a small scarring on the brain, the test was perfect and concluded that she was just experiencing old age dementia of some sort which is normal of people in her age group (Some are fortunate though not having to go thru. this period). The doc. still kept her on her airecept though which has done mom good.

I know the hardest part is getting them to realize how crucial it is to have them see specialist/doctors about various needs....but I found in our case it worked better catching mom when she was in a fairly good or happy mood. Then explaining how important  the matter is  and how beneficial it will all be to her health. She pretty much knows she's aging and can be coached or convinced if I can figure out the time she seem more receptive to hear what I have to say.  Ofcourse, if I say things at the wrong time with mom it can be very crucial and de-humanizing to her....So if she seems to resist my message, I give it a rest and try again some other time. You'll just have to observe and figure out what works bes for you guys....each individual is different in their own way....but most elderly who suffer dementia or alzheimers' have very similar symptoms if not exact.  Hope this helps and God bless.

Hi Rzales,

I think Bevel gave some good advice!  Another idea would be to talk to your mom about a few examples of symptoms and say something like, "I'm concerned that it may be a side effect of one of your other medicaitons (assuming she's on some).  I want to talk to the doctor about this because I want to keep you safe, happy and healthy.  If it's as simple as changing a medication or a dosage, we need to investigate it!"  I know it's kind of a false pretense, but it may keep your mom from refusing the appointment or feeling negative about it.

Please keep let us know how it goes!

Thanks to everyone who gave advice!

I'll let you know the outcome when we talk.

Rzales

Bevel,  loved your suggestions about approaching your mom when she is in a good mood and just trying again later if she is not receptive the first time.

I did want to comment on one thing you said about your mom.  There is no such thing as "old age dementia of some sort which is normal of people in her age group".  While over 50% of people over 85 develop dementia, that does not make it "normal"!  She might have Mild Cognitive Impairment or the doctor may be saying that she has some form of early stage dementia but he is not sure which one.  Also, an MRI is only one of many tools used for diagnosing dementias, as they are diagnosed by exclusion and rule out.  Excuse me, please, if I am being to emphatic or difficult about this, but my father was told some time ago he had "normal aging related dementia" which confused him and all of us, and we lost about 18 months of time when we were making the wrong assumptions about the care he would need, the cost of that care, and the appropriate medical treatment.  I am not trying to discourage you but I feel angry when doctors minimize dementia symptoms this way.  I can tell you are very caring and sensitive to your mom, and are doing a good job taking care of her.

Judithmft,  "the test findings indicated that my mom did not have alzheimers', not even a small scarring on the brain, the test was perfect and concluded that she was just experiencing old age dementia of some sort which is normal of people in her age group"  It should have  been written the "test was perfect and the Doctor concluded that she was experiencing  old age dementia.....")  Dementia was the conclusion of her primary care doc. based on the (MRI) specialist findings.

That is quite interesting that some doctors will pass it off as dementia being a normal phase,here. You are relating so much logic here...because I can think back and I don't recall my Grandmom and some other close aged friends/relatives who experience any form of dementia...As a matter of fact my Granny died at 95y/o and her mom at 98 y/o and they both never experience any form of dementia what-so-ever....how normal is that? I must agree with you on this one and thanks for the insight....it makes you wonder about some of the care physicians...hun.

Thanks and rzales I hope things turned out ok for you....happy T'Day.

There are many things that could be wrong with your mother. I would pic a problem besides the memory issue she seems to be exhibiting and tell her the doctor is going to see her for that.

I would try to pick a Gerontologist if you have one in your town. They are specially trained in the care of the elderly.

Your mother may be having small strokes, pressure on the brain caused by fluid build up. If that is the case they can put a shunt in and your mom will be like her old self.

A physician wil do other tests to see if something like hypothyroid could be the problem.

After all the tests are done if nothing else can be found then they will come to the conclusion that she has Alzheimer's.

If this is the case you should look to your local Alzheimer's Association for support and education.

I don't know if this helps anyone, but I'm 48 years old, and I have MCI. I've been unable to afford further testing as of yet, but I'm eligible for Medicare in August, and I'll begin testing at that point. I'm on Social Security now, and have completely lost my ability to work as a marketing consultant anymore.

At any rate, I suffer from the same symptoms as many, I can function pretty well, long-term memory is pretty good, but short-term seems to be getting worse, as time goes by. Motor skills are pretty significantly diminished. Things that used to come so easily for me, like reading, and playing the guitar, as well as working quickly are all very diminished.

One reason I've been hesitant to get further testing is, that I'm not always sure I want to know what the tests will show. Sometimes I want to know, because I'k like to know if there's anything I can do about it, but too often I just feel like I'm getting worse, and I'd rather not know any more.

Another thing that is very difficult, is, that at my age, it's becoming very painful for me. My wife and daughters and I have always been very close, and I can see how this is beginning to be harder for them, especially my younger daughter, who I think resents and gets impatient with me. Anyway, it's very painful to me, to think about how much of a burden I may become for them, and the pain they'll feel when I can no longer recognize or communicate with them. I feel like half a man, sometimes, and I just try not to think about it because I'm scared and hurting.

Don't know if this gives any insight on how to deal with your loved one or not.

Dear Roger - Thank you for writing about your experience.  No doubt it will help all of us to know what it is like to be "on the inside."   I can completely imagine and understand your hesitation about knowing more.  After having many conversations about this issue (is a definitive diagnosis, more knowledge better or not) with other caregivers and friends I have concluded that there is no one size fits all answer.  Some families and situations will benefit from having a thorough evaluation and diagnosis and some will not.  From my experience, I can tell you that I spent 1.5 years with poor clarity about my father's diagnosis and prognosis and often felt impatient, irritable and frustrated.  Now that we have had a clear diagnosis and good evaluation for the past 6-8 months I notice that I am much more patient and accepting.  I think it's because his behavior makes more sense in light of what I have learned about his diagnosis (Lewy Body Dementia).  I can see our relationship improving daily, because I have accepted th reality of his limitations and am able to take fewer things personally.  There is still stress, worry and frustration, but there is also greater peace and love.  But then again I have always been a "more knowledge is better" kind of person, so perhaps that's just what works for me!

Even though there is no escape from grieving your losses, I hope you can also remember that your essence is still here, and your family still loves and values the core of who you are.

To Bevels line about the elderly who suffer alzimers and dementia have similar symptoms if not exact.  That is not at all aggreeable by myself.  My experience with my Mom and what I have researched intently since dealing with this 6 months ago is that NO TWO people are the same.  Also that old age dementia is normal do not agree.  What can anyone add about someone who absolutely refuses to see the doc I mean feet set in cement.  My Mom was in health care for years and worked in the very home she could end up.  She assisted in physical therapy  and II believe she knows what is happening to her or figured it out early on.  Long and short she has refused to see a doctor or seek any treatment, test or anything.  She says she is 100%.  I did force her in when she was still able to be talked into it about 6 months ago.  I called before her appointment because I was then living in another state and I am suppose to be living there now.  Being from a little area with only family docs and the hippa law problem my call I believe was pretty much ignored.  Long and short she probably did not exhibit at that time the symptoms or could hide them.  I think the doc told her she is 100%.  I had a counsel with the doc when I got here and he said I could not force her in if she refuses.  I think he told her she is 100% at the appt.  Let me be very clear no good mood, no trickery or no amount of pleading, crying begging is going to get her in.  I think she has a death wish to die at home and she told me very many times while sane she would never enter the nursing home and if so she will herself to die as soon as possible.  Any ideas LET ME KNOW.   I am currently honoring her wishes.  BUT, I cannot continue to do this forever on my own.  She will not  let any assistance come into the house to help.  She kicks out the nurse who has been here 3 times.  The last time II thought she was not breathing right and dying.  She was just not speaking to me and being very ornery.  Physical abuse to me has started but I need more documentation and events to do a guardianship.  What is the point of going through all the money, courts, etc. with this attitude?  It will be a horror mess no matter which street I take.  If I force it she will die, if I leave it alone she dies, what a dark tunnel.

This is to Snow. 

I know what you are going through and I am so sorry to hear this. My mom was as stubborn as they come.  The years prior to her turning 80 yrs. old, she absolutely refused to go to the doctors.  After my father died (31 years ago) she became a very independent person. Nobody was going to tell her what to do. She said she had had enough of it when my dad was alive.  So anything I wanted her to do about her health or ANYTHING for that matter was a flat out "No!" One day she had driven over to my house for a visit and when she left, at some point on the way home, she had forgotton how to get home.  It didn't take long for her to remember, but it was enough to scare her. As soon as she got home, she called and told me what had happened.  I told her she needed to go in for a check up. I took everything I had in me to convince her and finally I got her in to see the doctor.  He had all kinds of tests run on her including a MRI and it was discovered she was in Stage 1 Dementia/ Alzheimer's. I noticed she was slowly having these symptoms for about 3 years prior but ignored it just chalked it up to old age and her refusing to see any doctor, I was tired of the grief and the hassel. I had promised her I would take care of her and not put her in an assistant living facility when the time came.  At this point she was still able to take care of herself and live on her own.  Her doctors wanted to monitor her. She would make the appointments herself and then when the day would come, she would sit on the floor and kick like a little kid and refuse to go.  I would get so angry at her, I'd leave her on the floor and go  home.  As the Alzheimer's progressed it was becoming easier to manipulate her to get her to the doctors. She liked the attention she was receiving.  Thats the only thing that became easier. The last year an a half of her life, my husband and I took care of her totally. We lived out of 2 housholds.  One week at her place and one week at our place. I myself didn't know where I was half the time. It was crazy.  I felt like we were living in hell.  It was the hardest thing we ever did. Looking back at it all, raising my son, who is 30 now, was a piece of cake compared to taking care of my mom.  Your mom is too ornery to will herself to die.  Shes just mad at herself and the world for whats happening to her.  My mom lived  5 years after being diagnosed with Alzheimer's and thats not what  killed her.  We found out she had colon cancer. She came through the operation with flying colors and was told she wouldn't need any chemo or radiation therapy.  Physically, things were doing well with her.  Her surgeon was so pleased.  About 3 weeks after her procedure(November 2008), 2 days before Thankgiving, her body decided it didn't want to work anymore and she passed away in her sleep at my home.  My advise, if you decide to have her taken care of at her home or yours, then you will need alot of help. At least one other person if not 2.  Having her in a assistant living facility would be better for you, but I personally couldn't have done that to my mom.  For one thing the cost of it and I've seen some of those Assistant Living Facilities.  Taking care of her, took its toll on us.   Its now 4 months later and we are now just starting to feel like ourselves again.  I just wished I could have had  her in to the doctors alot sooner than when she turned 80.  Aricept Treatment could have been started sooner on her because that medication really helped her mind.             

I am responding to Snow. What I am about to say is not going to help get your Mother in to see a physician.  Snow, In Apr 2008  I tricked my Mother into going to a doctor who was set up in advance to examine my Mother and admit her to the Nursing home directly across the street from his office. He was the attending physician for that Home. I did this because it was no longer safe for my Mother to remain in her home alone and she refused to live with anyone else. I won't go into all the behaviors and problems that her dementia was causing; they are too numerous to tell.  During the first 3 weeks in the facility my Mother gave the staff pure He- -!  In addition to being confused by the strange place, she was combative, roamed the entire facility, fell numerous times, escaped 3 or 4 times, etc. That home was not equipped for someone with Mother's problems. She was hospitalized for 15 days in a Senior Center for evaluation, then admitted to a secure facility for dementia patients. In the 11 mos since going into this facility, she has deteriorated steadily. No amount of therapy, etc. helped. Nothing can alleviate the fact that she is not in her own dear home. She has lost 45 pounds, largely refuses to eat, keeps her eyes closed 90% of the time and speaks in whispers. I guess I could have summarized all this to say to you, LET HER DIE AT HOME if at all possible! I realize how difficult, maybe impossible, this may be, but I'm telling you that watching her die in a facility will be worse. After experiencing nursing homes, even the best ones, I, too, would prefer to die as quickly as possible at home! I also realize that getting help at home is extremely difficult. There is no such thing as reasoning with someone in your Mother's condition, regardless of what some books on the subject may suggest. I have not found any of the Alzheimer's Organizations to be helpful, sorry to say.  Some of the rhetoric they espouse sounds "textbook", not knowledgeable! My Mother lived in a very small village (rural) with no medical facilities, no grocery stores, etc. Her behaviors had alienated most neighbors who avoided even a phone call from her number, so they were of no help at all. The BEST advice I can give you is to PRAY without ceasing. I have asked God to relieve my Mother's suffering and take her home to be with all those who have gone before her, all those she loved and misses. In His time, He will take her to Himself.

Dear Anoymous

Reading what you just wrote sounds so much like my mom did during the last year of her life.  She too kept on falling.  With one of her falls, she pulled her groin which landed her into one of those facilities for rehab.  After seeing how she reacted in that place, made me further decide she was not going into one of those facilities to live.  The whole time she was there, she was drugged up to the point of being in coherient  or when she wasn't she would roam the halls.  When she had her cancer operation, the doctor refused to have her in one of those facilities.  He kept her in the hospital for a week and a half for  her to rehabilitate there after her operation.  These hospitals are not equipped for Alzheimers patients.  the 2nd day after her operation, she manage to give herself a grand tour of the hospital. the doctor found out and had post a nurse 24/7 in her room; however that didn't stop her. She manage 2 other addtional times of roaming with the 3rd time was able to elude the nurse and went from the 7th floor to the lobby in her hospital gown. Whoever she came up against, whether in the hospital or her therapist, she gave them hell.  She was not a quiet person such as your mom is. She was a screamer and was doing that at the rehab facility.  When I finally got her home, she stopped the screaming, but would not stop talking.  She would talk in her sleep.  Infact I really didn't know when she ever did really sleep.  All of the sleeping medications that were prescribed to her, she would just hallucinate from them.  My husband and I would have to take sleep shifts just keep an eye on her at night. We eventually had to gate areas of her house and ours off so she would  not get into them.  Especially the  kitchen. She would go to the refridgerator and rumage around taking food out.  One time ate 2 lbs of meatloaf, which was prepared ahead a time for a meal.  Instead of using a fork and knife, she was grabbing chunks of it with her hands and stuffing it into her mouth as if she was a wild animal. Thats when we decided the kitchen was off limits.  That was just some of her antics and behavior. I won't go into the rest because it is rather "gross".   I was devestated when she died, but also was relieved at the same time when it happened which was here at our home instead of a facility.  She was cremated and we have her remains with us.  There has been a lot of unexplained noises going on in our house.   If it is her haunting us, I'm saying to her to go to the light in peace and give us some too! 

My mom has seemed not quite herself to me for some time but because my siblings all said they didn't see any change I just asummed maybe it was because she lived with me, my daughter and grandchildren and all that time together three women and children we were just getting on each others nerves. My mom's cooking some days is very good and other days you can't eat it; the rice will be all mushy and still have water in it where she turned it off like that or she boiled the meat and called herself making grave. I had mentioned to her I felt she was forgetting a little more and asked  her to talk to the doctor about it but she said she didn't see a problem. I told her that I know we all forget sometimes but when you can ask the same exact question four or five times in just a few hours time with no recollection that you had previously aske dnad gotten the answer someting is not right about that. I told her if she even realized , "Oh yeah you told me that' then maybe I might reconsider but to have no recollection at all I feel is not normal. I had made a couple of appointments for her while I was off but she would cancel them. I took her to one of her doctors appointments and since she didn't want any one in the room with her I waited a couple of minutes after they took her to a room and then told the nurse I need to step back there a minute I needed to tell my mom something. The doctor came in just a minute or two after I got into the room and asked how she was and she said "Well, I think I am doing alright but apparently my daughter thinks I have a problem remembering". At the point the doctor looked at me and said "Oh, you all are starting to notice" and I told him I had been noticing little things but since the others didn't I just let it go. He said that she had dementia. He said it in a matter of fact way looking at my mom that the led me to believe that not only did he already know this but so did she because she didn't seemed upset or surprised by the news. I guess she either didn't  want me to know or she forgot; she was more upset he was going to start sending Home Health to monitor her medicines and sugar (she's diabetic). They even asked if they could change her pharmisist because she kept harrassing the one she had non-stop. My sister has started noticing the changes but my brothers insist they don't see any change but of course they live in another state and when they come see her it is just for a couple of hours and she seems fine, the same thing at church she seems like this sweet little old lady with no problems at all. However, the minute we get in the truck to leave church or my brothers leave she starts in on either me, my daughters or the grandchildren and she just keeps on and on. She is selfish, self-centered, and rude. I try to keep my patience with her but my daughters aren't quite as tolerable their feelings get hurt then they get upset say something back and leave. To tell you the truth she acts like she hates us and my brothers think it  us, that we are not treating her right. God. knows I love my mother and it hurts to have to talk to her like she is a child at times. She is my mother too and neither me nor my children would ever do anything to deliberately hurt her. My brother came to get her to spend a week at his house then she'll go to the other one's for a week, the only thing is they both work long hours so will they really get to spend enough time with her to notice. One of my brothers called to say her spent the weekend with her and she seemed fine but when he went to work on Monday and she called and I was telling her how good the carpet looked in her room, she couldn't even remember the color of carpet and she was the one that picked it out for my son-in-law to put in her room while she was gone. Even when I told her it was green she asked what shade of green so I told her and she said oh well it hsould look okay in there then. No recollection that she was the one who picked it out at all. How can she hide this from them? How can they not notice that she is not the same as before? Instead, I have to hear how it's my fault. My fault the doctor says she has dementia, my fault he insisted has has home health, my fault someone can't bring her to town everytime she decides she forgot something and needs to go back (could be several times in one day), my fault, my fault, my fault. Do they really believe I would neglect or mistreat my mother? Who do they think has to clean up behind her if she can't control her bowels and she thinks she got it all up but didn't? Who do they think has to go behind her turning off the stove top fires, water and moving knives so the babies don't get them? Who do they think has to listen at her rantings and ravings, and yes no matter what they think she does? It is me, my girls and grandchildren trying to take care of her. I am not trying to complain about taking care of her I really don't mind I Love her and am not trying to get rid of her. Do we ever stop being the villans and is so when?

Responding to "its your fault".   You sound like you are almost at a breaking point, so you definitely need to have a sit down, serious "Come to Jesus" meeting (as we say in the South), with your siblings!  If your Mother's physician has not started her on Aricept or similar med, then maybe she needs a new doctor! A geriatric specialist would likely prescribe a helpful course of meds. Before my Mother was diagnosed with dementia, there were behaviors that caused problems between my sister and me. Looking back, we realize now that Mother's dementia was likely the culprit then. I know that you don't want your Mother's behavior to cause lasting bad feelings for your children, so don't be so hard on yourself if you have to find alternative living arrangements for your mother!

Responding to "NeedGrace". I thank you for responding sometimes I feel like I am losing it that I am on my own as far as the siblings. I thank you for your advice and I will try to find a time that both my brothers and sister can all get together with me to discuss mama. My girls have been telling me I need to either put mama somewhere or get one of the others to take her, however, their version of taking her is for about two weeks. Where that does give us a two week break it just seems over so quickly and yes I know that sounds horrbile. I guess I just feel really guilty about the whole thing; having to at times talk to her and treat her like a child, about the girls getting hurt feelings and telling her what they have to say then leaving , about trying to get the others to take her a while, about us thinking about  what are we going to do with her when it gets to where we can just no longer handle her or the situation. Also, I am not sure how I am going to approach the subject with them or even mama but I feel that before she is totaly unable to make decisions she needs to give one of us power of attorney. I don't care which one of us gets the POA but I do think which ever one it is should take mama with them so that they can realize the importance of the decision. By the way, yes the doctor had put my mom on Aricept but my sister called the other day to tell me it must not be working. My sister calls my mom all the time but when she called the other day she said our mother didn't know who she was. Even after telling her it was her daughter our mom thought it was me. My sister told her no it wasn't and waited a couple of minutes for mama to acknowledge that it was her but she never did. My sister then told her mama it's ****** and said that mama said oh, ok. My sister was very hurt that even then she didn't think that mama had recognized who she was. I know that my sister now realizes there is a problem but even staying with the boys they still say they don't see anything wrong with her. I told you all earlier about the ones phone call from the weeked but today the other brother sent me some text messages with pictures of mama outside helping plant a garden in a coat and shorts. When I texted back asking why she was outside in shorts and a heavy coat he just replied "that's your mother, LOL". Now, is it just me am I the only one that finds something wrong with that? Even questioning him he still thought it was nothing. Are they in denial or is she really that good that she can pull it off hiding it from them? Or maybe I am just over reacting. I just don't know anymore. But thank you again I really do appreciate your response and it was a helpful push for me to try to get the others all together at one time instead of a phone call here or there one on one. Maybe if the boys hear what my girls, my sister (now), and I have experienced with mama they will open their eyes and see there really is a problem and it is not me and my family. Thank you again as sad as Dementia and Alzheimers are and I wish it on no one or their families it's nice to have someone to talk to.

I suspect that my mother has dimentia and or alzheimers I cannot tell them apart. I am new to this

her husband died one year ago and that is when I started to have more contact with her. This past year has been pure HELL. I helped her to getting her bills organized and then she took them back and got everything mixed up again, she writes checks when there is no money and then gets charged the fee for bounced checks which puts her further in the red. She insists on having a car that she is paying for $300.00 and she does not drive it and does not let me sell it. She packs trash and will not throw anything away, when I go and clean for her she insults me and then goes and picks things that I threw out from the trash. She berates me to everyone and has ruined two relationships for me. She talks negatively to my twenty four year old son about me, and constantly lies. She refuses to give me her doctor's name and when her last doctor called me to tell me she wanted my mother to get an MRI and tested she left the doctor and insulted her too.

I am going through crisis and when she starts she continues until she gets me out of control!

Do people with this disease enjoy hurting those that are the ones taking care of them?

I do not know the first legal thing about this, and have been reading about a power of attorney or guardianship , she won't sign anything is there a way to get this without her signing?

I really need HELP!

Hi btorrente! I'm so sorry to hear that things are being difficult.

I wonder, would you mind posting this as a new thread on the Alzheimer's Support group? I think it might be of help to members there and to you as well. Or I can copy and paste the post for you over there. Just let me know. :)

Thanks!

LauraL

Can anybody tell me why oldsters have a tendency to "wrap their whole day" around one "little" appt.? For a few years, now, my mom - now aged 84 - would say she couldn't do something at 4, say, if she had a 5:30 appt. If she has an appt. to do her hair at 1:00 she talks like she can't schedule anything else that whole day!!! Otherwise this is an intelligent woman and, though I keep my mouth shut, it's hard to have sympathy with this trait!

Opinions welcomed!

Since you are posting on the dementia/Alzheimer's blog, I assume you are thinking that may be your answer? Actually from my experience with my parents (90+), there are many factors that might make someone over 80 or so say they don't have time for more than one extra event in a day. The main reason is that if they are trying to maintain independence -- given their increasing "tiredness" from physical problems and sleep problems -- adding just one outing to the day is all they can manage. Most at this age spend a chunk of the afternoon resting or napping. And once they have less independence (and more help with the daily living), the energy level usually continues to decline.

You should also make sure the doc is checking for other possible problems, but understand that your relationship with your mom will be going through a lot of changes now as she gets older and less able to care for herself without help. The fact that you are looking for input to deal with the changes you see means you will likely be a good support person for her!

Actually, I've been at this stint of caregiving for 7 yrs. Was secondary caregiver helping my mom w/ my dad who died in Nov. 15 yrs. before that a divorce ended a 5 yr. post as secondary caregiver to my mother-in-law who died of alzheimers. So, this stuff isn't new.

It's just hard for me to decide what my mother can do and what's beyond her capacity. She's the baby of her family and even when she was young she regularly pulled a "helpless" game claiming that she couldn't do stuff that any adult should be able to do!!! When I was young I jumped right in to do things for her... until I started realizing that I resented her helpless games. Now I'm endeavoring to NOT do what she can do!!!!! I have to earn a living and she needs to be as independent as possible. I DO get irked but I don't want to be unkind... Was just hoping that someone else has had experience with this sort of stuff.