Dad is in denial posted by anne @ 01:06 AM August 10, 2008

anne — Sun, 10 Aug 2008 01:06:52 -0000

Mellissa you were right to leave your dad at the hospital. At the end of the day, there comes a point where you have to let them be. They are gonna do what they are gonna do and you can't physically stop it. It might sound defeatist but if your dad wants to drink he will.

I finally had it out with my dad one new year's eve, when I was 8 1/2 months pregnant (single parent to be - living five hours away from my family and scared out of my wits). He had come down to give me spend new year's eve with me and give me support in my final weeks but instead got waylaid and didn't make it off the train. I'd booked tickets for us and some friends to see in the new year at a local restaurant but my dad didn't arrive. Turns out he'd met someone on the train and went off partying with them. I was worried sick, calling the police stations/hospitals in case anythiing had happened to him but also felt obliged to my friends and didn't want to spoil their new year's eve celebrations. I finally went to the restaurant at 11.30 but coudn't relax and went home at 12.05 only to find a pair of wet trousers on the ground floor of my apartment block and my dad passed out in his boxer shorts three flights up outside my door. Althougth I was 30 years old at this point, I was mortified. All the years of being ashamed of my dad came flooding back. The dissapointment merged with shame at my friends seeing that my dad had wet himself.

I had the most painful, truthful, heart to heart conversation that I have ever had with him that night. I asked him why he drank and why booze was more important to him than his family. I really needed him to be there for me then but he wasnt. The answers he gave me were vague but I quizzed him for about five hours and in the end told him to choose. I told him that I couldn't have him in my life anymore if he was gonna drink, that I was carrying a baby and I didn't want my newborn child to be scared or embarassed of him. I cried so much I didn't think I would ever be able to stop. In the end he said he would choose booze. I ordered him out of my apartment but then I backtracked. It was 5 in the morning and it was snowing outside. He was 60 years old - where was he gonna go? Nowhere was open and I didn't want him to die of hypothermia. I didn't want to be responsible for that so I backtracked and let him stay.

That was ten years ago. My dad is still in my life - although I couldn't live in the same city as him, which is having a knock-on effect on the care I am able to give my mother... And he still drinks. But even if it doesn't change anything, it is good to have the conversation or write the letter, tell them how you feel. Its hard but it is so important. It is important to know the consequences of your actions and how they affect everyone around you.

Having said that, alchohol is a depressant and the more they drink the worse they feel about themselves (for the chaos that is caused from them drinking so much) that they drink even more to 'forget'.

Oh of the 'conversation', its never been spoken of again!

Dad is in denial posted by Lisa B @ 06:39 PM July 22, 2008

Lisa B — Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:39:44 -0000

Wow, Melissa!! What an ordeal you've been through, just in the past few days! I commend you for being so brave and making those tough decisions regarding your day. I know how hard it must have been for you to leave him at the hospital but you did the right thing. You have to take care of yourself - especially with an important job interview the next day! (How did that go, btw?)

That is great that your mom is willing to stay at the RCFE by herself. Like you said, she will probably even receive better care when the careworkers don't have to deal with your dad.

I would at least try and see if Kaiser would approve an inpatient program for your dad. Maybe if they realize that it would be cheaper in the end than all those multiple ER visits, they would agree to it?

I will continue to send positive thoughts and prayers your way! Come back and update us anytime!

Lisa

Dad is in denial posted by melissa @ 03:27 PM July 15, 2008

melissa — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:27:06 -0000

Hi Lisa,

Thanks for your response. Here's where I am now. I went to talk to my dad that day after deciding I could only give him two options. I told him he had to decide by the following day whether he wanted to leave the RCFE and be on his own (the drinking option) and not call me for help or check into the outpatient program. If he chose the program, went through the treatment plan and followed up with AA meetings and stopped drinking, then he could stay. But if I became aware that he was drinking again, he would have to leave the home immediately. I apologized that he only had one day to decide, but explained that I couldn't give him longer because I was pretty sure if he had more time, he would get drunk as often as he could and probably fall again. I did not want to put the care home through that again since he had cut his head the last time he fell. I told him if he chose the program option he would have to do all of this on his own. I realize that this needs to be initiated by him even though I am essentially "forcing" him to go. I left him with those decisions (I also told the owner what was going on) and told him I would be back the following day. I went home and was feeling like I was being unreasonable and mean for being so harsh. That lasted for about 3 hours. After 9 p.m., I got a frantic call from one of the health workers at the home that my dad had fallen again and reopened the head wound and was one the floor bleeding because she couldn't get him on his feet. Good thing I only live about 15 minutes away.

I asked my husband to go to the home with me in case I couldn't get him up. My husband has been wonderful through all of this (we've been married for 30 years) but this time he was furious. We found my dad on the floor, bleeding profusely from his scalp and also his hands and elbows. My husband picked him up and put him in the bed. My dad did not remember getting up and falling at all and was pretty incoherent. I asked him of he had been drinking. He said no. I asked him if I were to look in his drawers and closet if I would find any bottles. He said no at first, then said "well, maybe one old one". I found 13 empty quart vodka bottles and one half full. I was ready to dump him at the nearest flophouse and be done with it. However, my calmer mind decided to take him to the Kaiser ER. While getting him dressed he became belligerent because he wanted a cigarette and I refused to let him smoke. The man couldn't even stand!

I'm not going to go through all of the subsequent sordid details but will say that after spending 2 hours with my dad @ Kaiser, the examining doctor finally came to see us and recognized my dad and me from previous "visits". He also said that my dad's alcohol level was 3 times the legal level. I kind of lost it. I asked if they were going to keep him overnight but the doctor could not say until they saw catscan results, etc. I had been through this excercise many times before and knew it would be hours before they fully evaluated my dad. I had an important job interview in the morning about 70 miles away from my home and it was already 12 a.m. I left his wallet with money in in it and told the nurse I had to go and it was OK for my dad to take a taxi home if they were releasing him. Like I said we/he has done this so many times before I finally put them in the home, that it became a common event that my mom would call an ambulance at $1200 a pop everytime my dad fell because he was drunk. I felt like a piece of crap for leaving him, but I was emotionally drained and have to live my own life. They released him the following morning and he took a taxi home. He made the decision to go to the outpatient clinic and is going through the intake process. I told my dad I would have to see proof he was successfully attending the program and his AA meetings and we would go from there. My dad can't afford an inpatient program and his med insurance won't cover it unless his doctor insists (I don't think Kaiser will). Needless to say, I don't hold out much hope for him and think I will have to make the final decision to cut him out of all of our lives eventually.

My mom is willing to stay at the RCFE by herself. The careworkers will probably take even better care of her since they won't have to deal with my dad who I learned has recently been nasty to them (most likely drunk) on a few occasions.

Thanks for letting me rant and thanks for the book link; I will check it out. I will update this post as my dad goes through the process. Although I'm not painting a pretty picture and I'm not looking forward to a bright future for my dad - it is an alcoholic's reality and I hope this might help someone in a similar situation that has some tough decisions to make.

Melissa

Dad is in denial posted by Lisa B @ 03:27 AM July 15, 2008

Lisa B — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:27:04 -0000

Hi Melissa! I'm glad you've found us. It definitely sounds like you are in a difficult situation and I can totally understand why you are losing your patience with your dad.

How far is the nearest in-patient alcohol abuse clinic? WIth my mom, we had to drive to one that was almost 3 hours away but it was worth it b/c it was an inpatient facility and she was able to stay there for almost 3 weeks. I know outpatient facilities work for some people but many others, like your dad, just end up relapsing.

I JUST came across a book tonight on Amazon, called " Elderly Alcoholism: Intervention Strategies" that you might want to check out. (Maybe your local library has a copy?). I can't vouch for it personally since I haven't read it yet but it got great reviews on another site. Here's the link :

http://www.amazon.com/Elderly-Alcoholism-Michael-Henry-Beechem/dp/0398072868/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216091943&sr=8-1 [amazon.com]

Would your mom be able to/want to stay at the RCFE if your dad was kicked out? I wish you the best of luck and please stop back by to update us! You can also check out our "Addiction Support" group, located here:

http://www.caring.com/community/groups/addiction-support

Lisa

Dad is in denial posted by melissa @ 05:21 PM July 09, 2008

melissa — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 17:21:52 -0000

Hi folks,

I was really happy to find this discussion. It looks like you've all been there and I need your help! I had to put both of my parents in a residential care facility this January. I was really lucky to find one that was within my parents means and that would take them both. I had to move them there because my mom has a lot of health problems and needs full time assistance. My dad on the other hand is an alchoholic and was no longer taking care of things. My mom has early dementia and fired the home care/housekeepers we hired because she thought they were stealing from her. My dad just quit doing any household things like paying bills and throwing out the garbage although he found plenty of time to get drunk. He has been through rehab a few times, used to go to AA but doesn't "like" it.

So they have been doing well at this RCFE. When they moved in they/we had to sign the facilities agreement and among the terms was that there will be no alcohol on the premises w/o the the facility's knowledge. My dad has been pretty good up until now. I suppose he was just maintainence drinking offsite. Recently, my younger sister who won't deal with my dad's problem at all noticed empty vodka bottles in their room. I talked to him sternly (I hate to use that word, but I am now his parent) and told him that it was unacceptable and the consequences might be that he would have to leave the care home. He said he would do better. He has the physical ability to go to an AA meeting, but he won't. Of course, because of the nature of the beast, he has progressively gotten worse.

Today, I have to go speak to him again. The owner of the facility (who is also a registered nurse) called my sister last night because he has been falling at the home and they believe it is because of his drinking. One time they found him on the floor with a bottle in his hand. The owner is extremely competent, kind and caring as are all of the health workers there. They love my parents but she cannot risk losing her nursing license and her facility license due to her knowledge that my dad is taking medication and drinking. My dilemma is what to do with him. I could kick him out (before the care facility does), I can insist he go to AA and take him to the meetings, I could check him into a Kaiser outpatient (that's all they have in my area) alcohol abuse clinic. He has been to this before, but relapsed after a few months. I have power of attorney for both of them and I feel like kicking him out and letting him fend for himself. I am losing my patience with him because we have been through this so many times and this time I refuse to put my mom's already fragile existence and her home care on the line because of my dad's drinking problem. If you have any input, advice or insight please respond and thanks for your help - I really need it!

Dad is in denial posted by Lisa B @ 02:35 AM March 27, 2008

Lisa B — Thu, 27 Mar 2008 02:35:52 -0000

I also wanted to add my hugs and congrats on your epiphany! It's such a difficult thing to realize that you can't change or fix them. And I'm finding it just as hard to remember it ! So many times I find myself falling back into my old patterns of trying to "fix everything", sigh.

Dad is in denial posted by Rebecca @ 07:33 PM March 26, 2008

Rebecca — Wed, 26 Mar 2008 19:33:10 -0000

and besides its a bad idea to give up something that tastes as good as bacon

Dad is in denial posted by Missy @ 07:19 PM March 26, 2008

Missy — Wed, 26 Mar 2008 19:19:51 -0000

*hugs* Rebecca, I'm happy you've had this moment of clarity. I went through a similar cycle with my dad. It didn't involve alcoholism, but rather his refusal to do as ordered by docs. No matter how much I nagged, pleaded, etc with him, he just wouldn't follow orders. It put a huge strain on our relationship until one day I had this same ephiphany. Free will is a very powerful thing. It's not my responsibility to do anything for my dad, other than support, encourage and love him. I can't make him go to cardiac rehab or stop eating bacon. The burden isn't mine to carry.

Dad is in denial posted by Anonymous @ 05:48 PM March 26, 2008

Anonymous — Wed, 26 Mar 2008 17:48:26 -0000

Glad you're on this side of this of the epiphany.

I waited about 30 years to talk to my dad about his alcoholism. I wrote a letter too.

I didn't get the response I hoped for, but it did really relieve me of this crazy burden that I didn't realize that I was carrying around: that I could fix my dad. It was some crazy conflation of ego (others had tried but I would succeed with my perfectly constructed and massively moving words) and deep misunderstanding of alcoholism. It was a big relief to find my way out of his disease. I really relished getting to just spend time with my father, even if it meant reducing my expectations for him.

Dad is in denial posted by Rebecca @ 04:45 PM March 26, 2008

Rebecca — Wed, 26 Mar 2008 16:45:33 -0000

Epiphany moment - the day after I got this letter from my Dad, he calls - which is first time in months that he has initiated a call, and he's not drunk - and we talk about the letters. It was actually not a bad conversation though I still think he is in denial. But the epiphany moment was that I realized I was holding on to all this baggage about him and what he should do and I felt like I was able to drop it. I can still care about him, but I don't have quite so much invested in the outcome. what a relief!!

Dad is in denial posted by Rebecca @ 01:09 AM March 19, 2008

Rebecca — Wed, 19 Mar 2008 01:09:18 -0000

Sometimes you just have to do stuff because you have to do it, knowing full well that it won't change a thing.

My letter to Dad was like that. He wrote me a letter back - well that was something. But there was no clue in it that he was responding to anything that I actually wrote to him about. sigh...

In Tai Chi we call this investing in loss.

Dad is in denial posted by Rebecca @ 03:45 AM March 05, 2008

Rebecca — Wed, 05 Mar 2008 03:45:24 -0000

cool thanks Lisa, Maybe I will check out one of the books.

Sent letter to dad yesterday... holding pattern...

Dad is in denial posted by Lisa B @ 03:17 AM March 05, 2008

Lisa B — Wed, 05 Mar 2008 03:17:03 -0000

For me, Al-Anon was helpful because it brought me into contact with people who were going through the exact same feelings (i.e. frustrations, stresses) as I was. I'm not a huge fan of big group things either b/c I always worry about not having anything to contribute but it was still nice to hear people talk about similar experiences I was having. I spent a lot of meetings just listening and nodding my head in agreement :)

I also found the Al-Anon books very helpful !! My favorite is " Courage to Change" but the main/traditional Al-Anon book " Paths to Recovery" is good too. One of the greatest lessons I learned from the book is that alcoholism is truly a family disease. Unlike something like diabetes that only exists inside the body of the person with diabetes, alcoholism is a diesase of relationships. I really have to work hard to remember that I'm powerless over it and all the worrying in the world won't help them stay sober. It's a tough one for me- I'm a big worrier!!

If you're not feeling up to joining a group (which is understandable), I'd start out by checking out one of the Al-Anon books.

Dad is in denial posted by Rebecca @ 04:20 PM February 29, 2008

Rebecca — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 16:20:59 -0000

Okay Lisa I have to ask... this has been bugging me years....

Al-anon.... personally I just hate group things.... What's the benefit... I don't drink.... what's the point?

(no defensiveness here.... )

mmmmm.... maybe I should do a little Byron Katie thing...and say... Daughter is in denial....

Dad is in denial posted by Rebecca @ 04:06 PM February 29, 2008

Rebecca — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 16:06:48 -0000

Yeah, I think so about writing the letter.... been procrastinating .... burying myself in work... but its officially this weekend's project. I end up having to set a firm deadline, and then in the last 15 minutes I know I'll just zip it out when there is no longer any time to get caught up in 'is this right', 'should I say that' - it ends up being the best I can do for now.

Not sorry I asked at all! wow really cool - I know it takes a lot of courage to do an intevention and it can be powerful if you can get everyone on board about it. We did that many years ago with another family member, but it can be challenging to get everyone to agree to it. That's super.

ALso makes me think of something a therapist friend said to me many many years ago.

"You can't change anybody else. You can tell them about it- which is the least effective method (of course) because they get defensive. Or you can work on that thing in yourself - which can be very powerful . It causes an effect on them through sort of like osmosis - like something that is possible in your personal universe becomes possible in theirs through your work on it."

The idea has stuck with me, and I think there is something to it, but I don't really know what that would be in terms of my dad. ????

Dad is in denial posted by Lisa B @ 03:12 PM February 29, 2008

Lisa B — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:12:16 -0000

I definitely agree with Missy about there being nothing wrong with writing a "you're a jerk" letter! Ahhh, nothing feels better than to just get it off your chest. I bet that you'll find the compassionate letter easier to write now that you have all those other feelings vented out.

As for question as to what motivated my parents to get on the "sober path"- For my mom, she was living with us for awhile and while we knew she was a functional alcoholic, it just started getting worse and worse. It was extremely stressful and we knew she would never agree to go into rehab on her own. So we did an intervention. She kicked, she screamed, she said "she'd rather die than go", etc etc. But finally, HOURS later (with the help of a family therapist via telephone), she wore down.

She stayed at the rehab facility for over 2 weeks and learned all about the AA the program. She really connected with the program and immediately when she returned home, we made sure she went to the local AA meetings here. I worried enormously when she did move out of our house and back in with my dad because he was still drinking at the time but she's stayed sober and we're super proud of her.

As for my dad- I'm not exactly sure what motivated him to finally stop. I know that he attended a few AA meetings with my mom but even then he didn't stop immediately. I give a lot of credit to a therapist we all see. I started seeing her first b/c of the stress of my mom living with us and later she started seeing my parents for marriage therapy. This therapist can get through to my dad like hardly anyone else can and I think she helped him start on the sober path. He tried to just cut down a few times but that totally didn't work and finally just also really bought into the AA program and quit for good. Thank God for AA !!! It really is an amazing group/program. I've even attended Al-Anon a few times and it's been helpful.

Phew, sorry for long -winded response to your question!! Sorry you asked? LOL !! I'll be thinking of you! Come back and update us once in awhile!

Dad is in denial posted by Missy @ 06:23 PM February 26, 2008

Missy — Tue, 26 Feb 2008 18:23:34 -0000

LOL Rebecca! I'm the queen of writing out emails of honesty. The key is to never address them...then there's NO chance they'll get sent Seriously, though, it's so healthy of you to have written the "you're a jerk" letter. There's nothing worse than trying to convince yourself you feel differently than you do.

Dad is in denial posted by Rebecca @ 03:03 AM February 26, 2008

Rebecca — Tue, 26 Feb 2008 03:03:56 -0000

I have to laugh... bc I started to write this letter and try to be so thoughtful and caring and on and on, and then I just got tired and wrote down what I really felt.... like "I love you a lot even though you are a complete jerk!".... well I guess I won't actually send that, but it did feel good to write it, and some how that lets it go a little.

Melanie - great suggestion about collecting some specific examples of dad's drinking stuff....

LIsa - my sibs and I pretty much pin down the corners of the USA map, so getting together is not likely soon, but I think I'll copy them on my letter and tell them what I think's going on. - once I can figure out how to write a compassionate letter.

That must be really difficult with 2 parents being alcholics, but its great they are on the sober ship. What motivated them to get them on that path?

Dad is in denial posted by Lisa B @ 11:18 PM February 25, 2008

Lisa B — Mon, 25 Feb 2008 23:18:49 -0000

Thanks for posting your update although I'm sorry to hear that you weren't able to talk to your brothers that well at the party. Do you live close enough to where you can another time? Maybe just a sibling dinner?

Both my parents are alcoholics and it is SO hard :( I do feel lucky at this point though that my mom has been sober for over a year and my dad about 4-5 months. But I remember the feeling of helplessness and the wanting to "fix" them like it was yesterday.

I agree with Melanie, that the letter definitely couldn't hurt- even if it doesn't get through to your dad, it will probably help you feel better just to get it "all out".

Please continue to keep us updated and definitely enlist the help of your siblings- the situation is hard enough so don't feel like you have to deal with the burden on your own.

Lisa

Dad is in denial posted by Melanie Haiken @ 07:28 AM February 25, 2008

Melanie Haiken — Mon, 25 Feb 2008 07:28:16 -0000

Hey Rebecca, Boy have I been there. I think you could try the letter-writing option; if nothing else, it might make you feel better to air your feelings and concerns and feel that you've done what you can.

But if your dad is an alcoholic, I wouldn't expect too much from his response; one of the biggest components of alcoholism is denial, and it can be a real beast to deal with. If your dad's in denial that his drinking has gotten out of control, then he's spending a lot of mental energy "proving" to himself that he's fine, and your letter may just provoke his defensiveness. If your siblings are also in denial, then it gets really hard because it can feel like everyone's ganging up on you and telling you YOU'RE the crazy one!!

In addition to writing the letter to your dad, I would suggest talking frankly to your siblings. Prepare ahead of time a list of incidents that illustrate your belief that your dad's drinking too much, so that you can "show" them as well as tell them. You might also read up on the definition of alcoholism (one of the key points is that the person doesn't stop drinking even in the face of negative consequences) so you can explain to your sibs why you feel your dad is an alcoholic and the ways in which he fits this diagnosis.

Then hopefully you can have a practical discussion about what to do next. You may not be able to stop your dad from drinking too much -- recovering from alcoholism is a big task and it may too much to expect this late in your father's life. However, perhaps you can tackle some of the other things, such as depression, you feel are contributing to your father's drinking. You can also figure out ways to protect him from some of the dangers of his drinking, such as making sure he can't drive drunk.

Good luck; I honestly feel this is one of the MOST difficult situations we deal with in caring for aging parents!!!!

Dad is in denial posted by Rebecca @ 11:32 PM February 22, 2008

Rebecca — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 23:32:42 -0000

I'm reporting in on Dad's 80 bday. I found it impossible to talk with sibs about him at the time. And I've so much baggage I just find it difficult to consider trying to talk to him about my concerns about him.

So my latest thought is to write him a letter telling him all the things I'm concerned about. I was thinking this bc I know he blocks stuff out in conversations and this way he could read the letter and then re-read it so that maybe it would register.

What do you think? Cop out?

Dad is in denial posted by Rebecca @ 01:15 AM February 15, 2008

Rebecca — Fri, 15 Feb 2008 01:15:59 -0000

Hmmm I think I could and will raise the subject about dad with bros. We're all convening for his 80th birthday on Sunday, and it might be helpful for us all to talk about concerns and checking in on him by phone.

What I miss about dad is the conversations that I never had. Some people you talk to and it feels like there is someone who really hears you and you them and you can talk. So while I am speaking to him it feels like he's on auto-pilot, so there's not much gratification from it, other then to know that he's still breathing and going around in his little world.

It makes me sad.

Dad is in denial posted by Stephanie Trelogan @ 12:22 AM February 15, 2008

Stephanie Trelogan — Fri, 15 Feb 2008 00:22:09 -0000

Aiyiyi, baggage: that's a whole post in and of itself.

Do you miss talking to your dad on Sundays? How about your siblings? Could you guys set up a rotating schedule for calling *him*, or would that just make everyone crazy?

Dad is in denial posted by Rebecca @ 02:55 AM February 14, 2008

Rebecca — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 02:55:06 -0000

Hey Thanks Stephanie...

You are right....if you guessed no... . He is so anti-establishment about doctors - for a good reason, though I think its stupid to make blanket judgements. ( A couple big doc screwups in the past.)

I was just thinking about how he used to call me and other sibs every sunday or so, and now he never does. I thought that it was a reaction to my telling him about my concerns about the drinking or the way I was telling him. But maybe its just another layer of passivity coming up.

Its such a hard topic I think because I have all my own baggage about him and hard to be objective.

That is sort of the heart of the matter isn't it. When and how to intervene in someone else's life or not to. When is it caring to let go and when is it caring to jump in.

Thanks for the big HUGS!

Dad is in denial posted by Stephanie Trelogan @ 07:43 PM February 11, 2008

Stephanie Trelogan — Mon, 11 Feb 2008 19:43:45 -0000

Hi Rebecca,

I think I can guess the answer to this, but how receptive would your father be to being evaluated and treated for his depression? If he is depressed, and it sounds like he is, his drinking is only making things worse.

You're right about one thing: you need to find a way to not take responsiblitity for your father's actions. I know that's a lot more easily said than done, but you've talked to him about all of this so many times. Ultimately, he'll have to decide how he wants to live his life, as painful as that is for you and everyone else who loves him.

So sorry you're dealing with this. Big hugs to you.

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